« The Shack. Thank Brahma that's over with... | Main | Credit Where Credit is Due Department »

November 11, 2008

Comments

jzzbassman

Wow. Tool is right.

I can't take anyone seriously who doesn't even want to enter into the conversation (which he says he won't debate on his ridiculous website).

I also can't take anyone seriously who sets his typeface to align right. 3 minutes of that gave me a headache....or maybe that was just the content.

Oh my, help save us. Our Nazarene institutions might be teaching Yoga!?!

I fear for my former denomination. If it wasn't for people like Jon in positions of leadership, I would have no hope at all. Even though there is virtually no Naz presence here in MS, I still wish the best for the COTN.

dr dobson

Greg--thanks for posting this about this complete idiot. It is high time that we take up a little debate with fools and products of them. They seem to be all-too horny to eliminate what they deem incorrect.

Open note to the Concerned Nazarene:

Jon is a great guy and he knows I support him fully and completely (always have, always will--even when he parted his hair in the middle and wore a tie knot no bigger than a coffee bean). As to this "Concerned Nazarene" cat, I would love to say that I can't believe that someone could be that stupid, but sadly I see it everyday. That dude is just one more notch on the bedpost of stupidity that has invaded the Nazarene Church; anti-Calvinist teaching is not Nazarene heresy; it is more centered on the roots of Nazarene theology and doctrine that anything you have just spouted on your website. Your stupidity is completely malignant and will (and has) completely kill careers.

Hey Concerned Nazarene, you will never understand a movement less concerned with dogma and more concerned with dialogue. Jon's approach to discipleship has always been and always will be to begin from the bottom up. If someone happens to stumble upon the church because of Jon's approach, why aren't you happy about that? Just because such a person can't recite the tenants of the doctrine you are defending (again, incorrectly), does this make that potential "believer" misled or not worthy of inclusion into your little circling of your holy wagons?

Your beliefs have driven more than a few good people away from the Nazarene Church and all you have to do is keep it up--you'll have God hating all of the same people you do. Congratulations. God is now made in your image instead of you in his. Even a yoeman's read of the OT (which clearly you haven't read since your Middler Sunday School days back in 1954) will show that God's people were to reflect the justice and righteousness of God; not engage in who was in and who was out.

Don't ever question why you drowned in the river of true ministry and service because you refused to open your mouth and drink.

By the way, unless you don't have the ability to edit on your own blog, learn how to type and use proper grammar and punctuation--it only makes you look stupid. Not only is the meaning of your words tacitly incorrect, your sentences are impossible to read with any sense of composure or structure. You would rightly flunk any grad program requiring anything written from you. Perhaps you did . . .

Your Nazarene demonination is not a place where questioning can occur--this is sad and flatly wrong. Jon has tried and will eventually succeed in welcoming a dialogue on issues about which you obviously know nothing. Without your proof-texting software and your VHS tapes of Van Impe's awesome end-times show, you couldn't wear the duke-stained trousers of the homeless guy under the bridge that you see everyday, yet do nothing about.

I for one am completely glad that Jon is more concerned with sharing eucharist instead of figuring out whom to exclude from it--we'll leave that up to you and your feable understanding of scripture.

cheek

I love that you're not supposed to talk about the Bible. Forget that Master's degree. Pseudo intellectual. But wait, wasn't it from a Nazarene school? Yes but you use proper syntax and an expanded vocabulary. Pseudo intellectual.

I think pseudo intellectual is fundy shorthand for "smarter than me."

Cara

Wow. I just looked at the site for the first time. It is incredible that someone would donate that much time to such rediculousity (made up word?)as removing yoga, interpreting other's conversations, and writing grammatically incorrect pages of crazy talk. What a cook.

Leighton

I also can't take anyone seriously who sets his typeface to align right. 3 minutes of that gave me a headache....or maybe that was just the content.

The right-align was fine for me, but for some reason I get a migraine whenever I try to read light text on dark background. Maybe I'm just a hidebound color scheme traditionalist.

Zossima

That's good stuff. I love it that, in another post, Colson is also considered a heretic.

I've said it many times before: These guys lash out in self-righteousness that God himself locked down the tenets of the faith in his own self-evident Word; but take any 5 such inerantists and fundamentalists, and they can't agree on basics regarding doctrinal concepts such as original sin, salvation, God's foreknowledge, and the end times.

Big Mike

Greg,

I'm sorry that people who know nothing about nothing use you as their muse. Oh, well. I hope life is going well for you and your fam.

Mike

GD

I like that he called out Henri Nouwen and Thomas Merton as thinkers that the emergents rely on as though those damn Catholics are somehow part of the emergents' heretical shortcomings. Well why stop there? Why not dig Teresa of Calcutta up and b-slap her too? Clearly anyone who gives their life to the disenfranchised has nothing redemptive to add to the conversation, provided the fundies would even participate in it. I can smell the stench of self-insulation from here.

awall

Anyone notice how tim's blog copyright restricted his work such that it can only be reproduced in it's original format and, I assume that means, its entirety? He didn't quite afford that dialogue by greg and jon the same standard of contextual faithfulness.

Brannon Hancock

Right on, Greg. I wrote to Tim, who, as troubling as it may be, lives a mere 50 miles away from where I live...here are the highlights:

Hi Tim.

I was preparing the following remarks to post on your guestbook, but then saw that you had deleted all of the critical comments and that you have now stated that the guestbook is only for supporters – which tells me you are in no way interested in dialog (no matter how many times you use the word) – so I am emailing you instead.

I find it interesting, to say the very least, that your "concern" over the way "emergent theology and practice" (as though this refers to anything specific or defined) has infected and/or is infecting the Church of the Nazarene arises from a view of the Bible that the Church of the Nazarene does not espouse, and never has.

Furthermore, after a cursory glance at some of the language you use (e.g. "Bereans"), the websites you advocate (under “favorite links”), and the authors and figures to whom you appeal for support (Ray Yungen, John MacArthur, Todd Friel), it appears to me that you represent what is perhaps the larger threat infiltrating and infecting Nazarene doctrine and polity: namely, Reformed and/or Calvinist theology.

The Church of the Nazarene does not claim that the Bible is inerrant, which is a statement about what the Bible IS, but rather that the Bible inerrantly reveals to us God's will in all things necessary to our salvation, which is a statement about what the Bible DOES. I suggest you study Article 4 in the Manual of the COTN.

In any case, we are not a tradition that relies upon a doctrine of "biblical inerrancy," such as that articulated in the Chicago Statement or any other such definitive, confessional statement. While I might even share some of your concerns about this amorphous thing that goes by the name "emergent," I am personally concerned far more deeply by the fact that you demonstrate little understanding of both your foe and of the tradition that you seek to defend.

I genuinely hope that those who encounter your website will be challenged to think and to search the scriptures and to pray; but I also hope they will quickly realize that many of the views and doctrines your website represents are not indigenous to the Church of the Nazarene, and will be discerning enough to disregard them.

Also, as you appear interested only in proffering your own views, might I suggest you change the name of the website to “concernednazarene.org” (singular, rather than plural)?

Peace be with you.

Tim responded thus...actually, I'm not sure it's really a response to ANY of my points (except a big "nuh-uh" to my Reformed/Calvinist accusation), and I'm still struggling to wrap my head around his final statement:

Hi Brannon: I respect the fact that you disagree with me. Just for the record I believe Calvinism is error but still love John Macarthur and Todd Friel as well. Ray is a friend of mine and is not a Calvinist. I shut down negative comments because thats not what the guestbook is set up for. Thats why I have 2 blogs and another website titled The No Goofy Zone. Your comments and observations are welcome there.
I hope you understand why I took the stance I did about the guestbook.
Your comments and emails are welcome.
Cant say I will always reply or post them.
But they certainly are welcomed.
You are entitled to believe the way you do.

I mean...seriously?

peace to you all. ~Brannon (P.S. great Ryan Adams quote, Greg. One of my favorites of his lyrics...)

dr dobson

Brannon

I, too, have taken Tim to task over his tactics and lack of making even a feable attempt at contacting Jon, whom he has called out and accused very wrongly.

Tim is taking the usual self-imposed high road of "obeying God's word first" as opposed to befriending others. He makes me sick.

I for one am not going sit back and watch yet another great person become destroyed by fundies. Idiots like Tim Wirth and others have had their day in the sun; they're now going to be held accountable by those of us who are actually taking them to task, e.g. I've emailed Tim several times and have included both Jon and a prominent General Superintendent of the COTN in each of my emails. Tim never uses the "reply-all" button, but they're on copy to every reply I've ever sent him.

As an aside, Tim has not once called or emailed Jon to discuss this. Tim even admitted to me that he has taken the opinions of others about Jon and Jon's work to form his own opinions (under the guise of "if they disagree with him, then I do, too). That some pretty amazing logic seeing that Tim advocates for a "true" reading of scripture, yet refuses to see that the scriptures he is talking about are not primary and never have been.

Thanks again to Greg for bringing this to our attention--I now have my project for 2009 and that is the defense of good people who are being led to the guillotine by fools and clueless idiots.

The naysayers and critics have never been shy about trying (and most always succeeding) to eliminate those with whom they disagree--it is high time the defenders stand up and hold these idiots accountable.

greg

I've responded to Tim on his blog again because he told me Scripture didn't obligate him to contact Jon because Jon is in error. I provided the phone number to the church. I'll hold my breath. Any response from the GS?

jzzbassman

Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly qualifies this guy in any way to question anyone's theology?

As far as I can tell, he is just a drummer who has been on TBN.

I definitely agree with Dobson here, he is more Calvinist/ Reformed leaning than many of my Calvinist friends.

greg

It's sad that he doesn't know he's a calvinist. It was the inspiration for the post title: reformed fundamentalist...

GD

I was copied on the email from the GS to Tim. He called Tim on his approach, the content of his website, and his concern about emergence. I would love to copy it here, but he asked that his words be kept to the email correspondence and not cut and pasted else where. But knowing the GS like I do, it's no surprise that it was a solid enough response that the thumper should be somewhere digging a hole right about now, but he likely hit delete and went back to work looking for new ways to eisegete.

GD

BTW, I just watched the podcast video on his site where the emergents are called out for caring about the earth, feeding the poor, etc. instead of giving weight to orthodoxy. Amazing!!!

Brannon Hancock

Let me just state, for the record, that I don't have a problem with Reformed theology in any proper sense...I know a lot of Nazarenes who could do with reading a little Barth! I was really just referring to Tim's misguided take on Scripture, which derives from that tradition (Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, etc). I DO, however, stand 100% behind my statement that Tim and what he represents are an immeasurably bigger threat to the COTN than any of the things he is "concerned" about...

dr dobson

Brannon

I'm curious to hear what you actually don't have a problem with in terms of Reformed theology. Tim, in his attempt to state that he is not a Reformed guy, is actually invoking the trump card that all of Calvinism and the Reformed crowd play whenever they are out of logic and other moves (which happens with them when they hit about 10 words in to any dialogue)--they simply state that "if you disagree with me, then take it up with God because it is his truth, not mine". Tim is doing the same thing in his piss-poor position-taking on the issue at hand.

The "just because" argument doesn't even work with two year olds, much less something as profound as someone's spiritual ethic. I'm certainly not trying to convert you into a Reformed hater, but what do you like about it that allows you not to dislike it?

GD

My dialogue with TW has now deteriorated to the point where he "feels sorry" for me because of my "lack of discernment." This is my sad face.

greg

i stopped going over there because it's just too depressing. On the upside, i'm so disconnected from church that I no longer feel blind, paralyzing rage at simpletons like Tim.

GD

OK, I am extending an nice, ripe olive branch to Tim. He reminded me that it was disingenuous to sucker punch him with my comments in this public forum while inviting him in private to be in conversation with me in constructive, redemptive ways. It does not mean that I don't continue to disagree with him to an inexhaustible degree, but the manner in which I did that here was a bit bush league of me. I could have afforded him the grace of not being chopped at the knees, especially since I was exhorting him to give Jon the same benefit.

He no doubt will continue to call out Jon and other good people for what he considers to be unpardonable offenses, and I will continue to consider his preoccupations with "heresy" as a waste of his energies and resources, just in a kinder, gentler way.

greg

i'd be delighted if you can get him to give you a chart of what constitutes heresy over against the orthodox position. then we'll compare it across the spectrum: pentecostal, baptist, catholic, orthodox, mennonite, mainline. That would be sooo much fun.

Deadcultural

Prisoner Writing,hope role severe job style section drop gun lack married drink roof result early develop point chair sex rule return power close chain especially support change any offence regular manner share tape next studio time unless better leading peace studio official outside that immediately ask narrow bottle series bad account date metal agent music signal claim health aircraft white thank heat therefore tax contrast environmental until century speech liberal sound shop programme reveal key come roof ship attend example ought jump blue additional scientist extra shoulder

Notionelement

Early Management,play complex invite fly difficulty pupil match that long client we example employer across beside apply product meal spend reflect word payment maintain not many cause merely stock drive propose meanwhile remain weapon fight catch sun job payment accident worry video above need everyone question constant reject incident committee knowledge source image son doubt early floor general quite conversation score with box survive group experience feel conflict human soft special truth environment matter deputy wonderful original village private ear strategy trade reduce used before sleep spirit before

The comments to this entry are closed.