At the Risk of Being a Crank...

For those of you who don't live close enough to know about the hydra-headed church in OKC called Lifechurch.tv, suffice it to say it's an 11,000-member church with four main locations, one church plant, and a new location coming to South OKC in January 2005. The church is allegedly a member of the Evangelical Covenant Church (covchurch.org), although in practice they resemble a suburban fundamentalist megachurch of the very vanilla variety (i.e., the pastor swears by an inerrant, infallible Bible and a literal six day creation).

Anyway, just for grins I check out their website occasionally. Tonight I found the eight books that the pastor recommends from the Lifechurch.tv store. (Didn't you know all good churches have a store? Don't worry about Jesus' words about moneychangers and a house of prayer. That's just silly Jesus talk.) I think I've finally obtained proof about why megachurches are hotbeds of aberrant Christianity. The list of books is here, but I can tell you that you will find one autobiography and one church growth book on the list. The other six are business books.

That's right, little flock, for your spiritual well-being the church is recommending business books. No theological reflection. No spiritual disciplines. No church history. No classics of Christian thought or theology or literature. Nope. Just business books. Forget C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton, and John Wesley, all of whom are accessible to Joe Pewsitter. Don't even think about Karl Barth, Jurgen Moltmann, or John Howard Yoder. Nope. Just business books. Oh, and Billy Graham's autobiography: the man who did the most in the 20th century to reduce conversion to a cognitive process. How fitting.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the shallow theology I find in the denizens of these megachurches. What else should I expect when the pastor's two theological heroes appear to be Billy Graham and Lyle Schaller? For those of you who aren't church folk, imagine preferring Nicholas Sparks to John Updike or Danielle Steele to Flannery O'Connor. Nothing wrong with the popular writers, but we wouldn't argue that reading them is good for us. Last question: why do I even care about this?

Comments

[JustinM]

Maybe the list isn't necessarily for the flock's well being at all. Maybe its the pastors recommendation to the business committee or the board. Either it kinda shows what the the leadership spends its time thinking about.

[Visiting Atheist]

I can't speak for your motivation, but when I look at things like that it's usually a kind of morbid curiosity at work. As far as I'm concerned, it's an open philosophical question whether it is cognitively possible for people in such an environment to believe what they claim to believe. It's a real-life example of the Philosophy 101 question "Is there a proposition P such that people could believe both P and not P at the same time?"

The obvious resolution is that belief (in general, not specifically religiously) is often more of a social issue than a cognitive matter...but it's still so interesting!

[Kristen M]

That is soooo sad. Really. Even Oprah uses her book power for good. Recommending business books? Well, why pretend to be about spiritual depth when you are so obviously not?

[SmallGlimpses]

The church is now peddling merchandise for book sellers??? That's an amazing marketing "achievement" since the church offers a built-in captive audience and I use captive in an unflattering way. This infuriates me (and sad at the same time). The church looks more and more like the "world" everyday. It's getting harder to distinguish a difference.

[Streak]

I guess if church is just another business, and Christianity yet another commodity, this all makes sense. It is unbelievably sad.

[JustinM]

Since we are on the topic of weird things...

I came across a flash page that shows a kind of quick sinners prayer. After you pray, it gives you this webpage...

http://claybeflash.com/index.php?p=21&answer=no

[Brandon]

Congrats! You found Jesus! Now, let's fuck up his creation by driving an H2 around in it. Wooohooo.

Good call, JustinM.

[greg]

Justin,

Don't know whether to laugh, cry, or rant about that site. Sheesh. First, do they think a flash presentation is effective? Second, why the Hummer giveaway? Third, why the Hummer giveaway in conjunction with an invitation to "salvation?" Won't people assume the two go together in some sense?

[nick]

i signed up and asked that they pray for me to win the hummer b/c i reckon god really wants me to have it. i wonder if they'll ask me to prove that i prayed their nifty prayer that got me off scott free from all the things their technological presentation mentioned. i was glad to have the opportunity to see the gospel presented in such a modern way. it really effected my spirit.

good lord, ... i wasted 10 minutes

[red-faced Robyn]

OK, the hummer thing is pretty funny. Doesn't WWJD stand for "what would Jesus drive" ??? but back to Life Church, here's my comment...

Uhhhhh...I must say it is rather embarrassing and a bit disconcerting that these are the recommended books. Seems a bit narrow, ok, well more than a bit. But, they do have free donut holes and free bottled water and free cokes and free chips and free Sweet Tea from McAlisters and free cookies....maybe someday soon they will have a drawing for a free hummer too...

Let's face it, I'm no Theologian (in case you didn't know), but I was put off by the fact that they are such 'MANLY' books. Going to go back and check the site to see if the pastor's wife has any recommended reading for us church ladies, but maybe since I'm supposed to be staying at home and home schooling my kids that I'm not supposed to read too.

[Scott Jones]

So let's to work to counter this narrow-mindedness. My current youth council president is reading Descartes' Meditations so we can discuss them together (we've already done Plato).

[Adam]

I didn't realize that Christ had a different agenda for "The Very Large Church" than he did for what I thought he called "The body of Christ". But I found out for sure last Sunday that he did. First Baptist Broken Arrow just revised their building project to now around 27 Million for the total ending cost. They have already spent a few million on the church they have already. When did they do this you ask? Right after a sermon series called "40 days of purpose" in which Rick Warren was the main text.

I'm starting to wonder when these churches are going to start selling stock and take on the name "Fortune 500".

So I went to another church. Was I safe there? No, of course not. The sermon was on finances and how they are our trademark and in sunday school one guy gave a testimony about how his yellow hummer was very much his trademark. I thought "How fitting, while your hummer is fucking up the environment, you and your church are fucking up the gospel. Your right it is a fitting trademark".

[marty]

I can tell my psyche is in bad shape. Reading this (and especially Adam's terrifying examples) I feel nauseous. No, really. My head feels all rubbery and sick.
Sad stuff, folks.

[Brandon]

So, I suppose this all leaves us where it always does when we all see shit like this. I struggle with the "what do I do about it?" question.

Any answers?

[Cathy]

Mr. Horton (author of article) has NO IDEA what he's talking about. Don't believe for a second everything you read to be true! Life Church is a powerhouse for the awesome work of the power of Christ Jesus to change lives. I have attended for 8 years now and know many of the staff and their passion for Christ. The book list was a quickly selected list that the pastor reccomends for his staff to read. Why many business books? Maybe because of the pastors belief that most churches today are failing miserably at outreach to the unchurched and he's realized that the "business world" has some effective methods that we the church can learn from and adapt to futher spread the good news.
Which by the way, the good news is that Jesus Christ came to seek and save lost!
Seek Jesus, not the bad news that you wish to find in "the church".

[Jennifer]

Why was the list "quickly selected", I wonder?

See, I am an educator and am sickened to see this "business world" pagadigm invading everything we do. I still think education should be above it and most certainly the church should be beyond it.

The big K Kingdom is not of this earth. I clearly think this falls into the "of it" portion in the "in it not of it" clause.

I just don't want to get to heaven to find Dilbert.

[Brandon]

Cathy,

I doubt you'll be back to check this but in case you are let us review.

1. Greg never questioned, as you would infer, the commitment of your church leaders to Christ. He simply gave a critique. I believe that in the worldview of Greg (and do correct me if I'm wrong) he would hold that grace is big enough to allow even the pastors of your narrow minded, male-centric, white skin-centric church to be Christians. However, by your inference that his disagreement with your churches' practices we can tell that your view of grace is clearly not a very big grace. The problem is...with such a tiny grace--how do you know YOU'RE in?

2. How is it that Greg has no idea what he's talking about? He merely pointed out (accurately, as I've visited the page in question) that your pastors had assembled a list of books to read. His critique was of the books chosen. I fail to see how your comment that "he has no idea what he's talking about" could hold any semblence of water.

3. I would rather not vomit, and as such I will not undertake a treatment of how worthless your understanding of the "good news" is if in fact that good news must be marketed and "sold" to "consumers." That was Greg's critique. Suffice it to say, if the news is so fucking good why the hell must I sell my soul to go to your church?

Next time, prior to commenting in a hostile place and a statement you no nothing about, I would suggest that you do your homework, if you intend to dissent. You'll be less likely to look as foolish that way.

[Resident Atheist]

Hi Cathy,

I suppose that as the designated spokesperson for the unchurched, it falls to me to share with you the unfortunate truth that treating Christianity like a business really doesn't impress us much. At least, those of us who think there are more important things in life than turning a profit.

I know that idea sounds pretty stupid, but what can I say? For some crazy reason, people are silly enough to think Jesus might have taught something along those lines. But hey, if you'd rather not take the gospels too seriously, I understand that too. Paul seems to be a much more comfortable source for evangelical theology these days.

Best,
RA

[Resident Atheist]

Although to be fair, Paul did advocate "being all things to all people", rather than being businessmen to both businessmen and people who, frankly, are pissed off by businessmen. This really is a new gospel, isn't it? Interesting.

[Brandon]

RA, such restraint. I should learn from you.

[Adam]

I thought someone here might find this interesting. I called a guy to inquire as to the location of a bible study that I wanted to check out and instead of directions or information about the bible study (He said is was cancelled this week and he wasn't sure what they were doing) I recieved an invitation to a business luncheon to help sell prepaid legal services.

I guess there is one good thing about these "selfish, cracker-ass, surban cult of self" churches, they sure do provide a good multi-level marketing business opportunity.

[Streak]

Networking, Adam, networking. I think this is the same reason people join country clubs.

[Brandon]

Dammit. I just realized that in my last paragraph in my rant above...I spelled "know" as "no."

Talk about a train wreck at full speed.

sorry.

[Resident Atheist]

Nah, no restraint in particular. It's just SOP in fishing for drive-bys: some people tear them a new one, and others are nice but "accidentally" misstate the hit-and-run position in hopes of provoking a response.

If there's a big enough response pool, someone usually winds up MSTing the post (as in Mystery Science Theater 3000), which entails dissecting it line by line and making off-the-wall snarky comments that focus disproportionately on errors of spelling and grammar. It's all great fun.

[Craig]

I've got a question for the smart-ass author of this so-called critique, have you actually attended any of the services at Life Church or are you basing your "opinion" on the web page and a very shallow understanding of what you think church should be. As a member of Life church, I can tell you that the books are being sold at cost, not at a profit. Face it, finances are an important part of the world we live in and I applaud a pastor that has enough guts to suggest to his following some means to help them in their personal lives both prctically and spiritually given that almost 75% of people live paycheck to paycheck. Anyway, after reading the other posts, I'm guessing that I'm wasting my time here even commenting. You people are poor cynics who should actually attend a couple of the services before passing judgement on the spiritual well being of the regular attendees of Life Church.

[greg]

Craig,

I’m the “the smart-ass author of this so-called critique” where you left a comment. As to your question, yes, I’ve been to Life Church many times. Additionally, I know upwards of 100 people who attend, as well as a handful of folks who no longer attend. I have friends there. I’ve known your pastor since ’96. I like him. We disagree about almost everything.

As to your observations, first, the books on the recommended list aren’t about personal finances; they are about business finances, business philosophy, and corporate strategy. I find it disingenuous for men who make six figure salaries in the church to speak to congregations about how to manage money. Taking six figures in the context of ministry is a sin and someone ought to say so. If your pastor doesn’t fall into this category, then you can ignore this part.

Second, I am aware that finances are part of the real world. My wife have started attending a church in an at-risk neighborhood where everyone lives hand to mouth. The church that sponsors this community outreach gave 41 percent of their budget for missions last year. They are striving for 50 this year. How does Life measure up? Please don’t tell me about all your missionaries and youth mission trips. What percentage of actual budget goes to foreign and domestic missions? Most churches give between 7 and 15 percent. It’s shameful. They can do more when the congregations figure out church isn’t about talking trees in the children’s area and Krispy Kreme donuts to make everyone fatter and better consumers.

Last, since you don’t actually no anyone who posts on the blog, you should probably withhold judgment. The believers on the blog care deeply about the church and would like to see it behave as the church and not as a cracker-ass country club for SUV-driving suburbanites who wouldn’t soil their hands with the poor, the disenfranchised, and the marginalized. They volunteer their time at churches and ministries. The unbelievers care deeply about the world and would probably like to see the hypocrisy that characterizes the American church come to an end. The world is literally starving to death and struggling to find clean water while we shop and eat and entertain ourselves to death, have Bible studies about being purpose driven, and meet once a week for a rock concert/motivational speech and call it worship. Thanks for stopping by, Craig. I’ll copy this to the blog in case you want to respond publicly. Grace and peace.

[Robyn]

Craig,

Did you have the opportunity to attend an Experience this weekend? I am referring to my sermon notes where Pastor Craig that we should extend grace to others. Granted, Pastor Craig was talking about how we should treat our gay friends, but I'm sure Pastor Craig would also want us to extend grace and kindness to Greg as well. That would surely not be a waste of your time.

[Craig]

Why yes Robyn, I did attend the services this weekend, thank you for asking. I also took notes and what I remember was " don't go soft and abandon truth." Displaying grace and kindness doesn't rule out the fact that I can and will disagree with the things that this guy is saying about our church. As a member of Life church I have the right and I think a duty to stand up for our church when someone else is trying to run it in the ground. Remember Robyn, if you don't stand for something , you'll fall for anything.

As for your comments Greg, just how much money do you think is appropriate for a minister of a small church to make? How about a large congregation? I assume that in your world the ministers are not allowed to have families or procreate in any manner, that way they wouldn't need a salary and could live in a small, modest hut that the church provides and spend their entire day reading scripture and eating what the congregation provides for substenance (sp?). I guess then it would not be a sin. Honestly, I don't know what Craig makes nor do I care. I do know that his goal is to reach the point where he can be the Senior Pastor of Life Church gratis and he has the clear vision to get there.
Look at the OKC church itself, the structure is very modest in comparison with other churches its size. Expansion into other areas has been accomplished by utilizing otherwise empty commercial space. You guys make it sound as if the money spent on the church is extravagent and it's not.

Regarding the money spent on missions, I don't know the % but I'll find out . I thought Christianity was not about the deeds and the magnitude of the deeds, but I guess you people disagree. I mean, I am saving to go on a mission to Honduras to construct shelters, but I don't in any way see that as defining me as a Christian. That's in my heart and mind.

Again, I don't have to know your following to be able to read their hatred of my church (or what they think is my church), its right there in their words, F'n this and sh't that. You are right to be proud and defend their foul mouths and such just as I have a right to be proud and defend my church and the good that comes from it.

You guys remind me of the hippies of the 60's, you want to cry about all of the injustices in the world, but you don't have an practical solution, just berade the ones who don't believe exactly as you believe, that reaally is sad IMO.

PeaCE LOVE far out man

[Scott]

Craig

Hi, I'm a former OKC-ite. I remember Life Church when it first started up and was meeting over off Counsel.

First let me say that I don't think you should interpret Greg or anyone elses comments as loaded or subversive. This is simply a Blog bro, not a hate place. It's taken me a while to understand the why and what of things said here.

I'm a staff pastor of a mid-sized church in Houston and I can tell you that Greg and I disagree on a lot. In fact you could probably find more that we disagree on that what we agree on. However being a spectator and contributor to this blog has been a catalyst for change in my heart and mind. I am not one that will whine and bitch without having some sort of solution...there are different views to that issue. I don't agree and I will call them on those things but it is presumptious of me to assume my evangelical holiness makes me 100% right all the time. I believe that there is truth spoken here if you can see past the angry rhetoric of people that have experienced the worst of church and seen lives destroyed rather than restored.

I believe in the church and am passionate about the direction my local body is taking. Our % of missions is not as high as I want it to be, but I can tell you that sentiment is shared by our senior pastor as well who makes the exact salary that I do...no joke Greg. You think Jeff would have done that?

My point is that the church is still breathing and it's heart beating. Where the church as a whole will go at this point is beyond my predictions. I think for the most part is sucks. However I have learned to take criticism to heart and listen to unhappy voices and make an impact in my world not based on hatred and devisive conversation but on solutions and change; REAL CHANGE. Thanks for being in the blog, staying in the blog is totally up to you.

Blessings
Scotty

[Scott]

By the way,

I think our missions is about 23%. That figure comes from what I know of the budget spending/giving ratio, and from the figures I've seen given to missions groups including and not limited to Christian organizations in Israel, Bulgaria and Iraq as well as local.

(Not trying to toot this church's horn, it bears on the conversation above)

[Adam]

Scott,

I have to say that I admire the way that you handled the above stated comments by Craig, very compassionate bro, nice!

Craig,

What the hell are you so mad about?! "Run our Church into the ground", are you serious? Come on Craig, are you? Do you really think that the people on this blog have the time, energy, or concern to run a church into the ground. What would that even consist of? How many people do you think participate on this blog? I think that you have bigger problems than a handful of people trying to figure out what the best way to live (or worst way) given the message of Christ.

Not only that but you don't even know any of the people here. So what makes you feel justified in calling us "hippies that cry about. . . "? Do know what organizations these people are involved in or how they help out there communities or live out the gospel. Wait, wait, I know, you don't. You make judments based on the language we use and not the content of our message. You take our arguments and questions to absurd lengths that in no way reflects what was originally said. Then, and probably worst of all, you use language in reference to truth that should only be reserved for sexual disfunction, "Don't go soft on truth". Maybe you are going soft "in" everything else so it makes you feel "hard" to come over hear and commit ad hominem crimes.

Okay sorry, that was cheap, but honestly man, we would love to have discussion with you, but it sounds like you are screaming in our faces. Chill out a bit and give us a rational explanation of what your views are and we're golden.

As for instituting change,I think that this blog is a great catalyst for change. All great changes took place over discussion and critique on the issues. I agree that doing nothing else would be futile, but change never takes place without the dialogue.

[Brandon]

I love the fact that I get lumped into "the people at this blog." (And, I'm not saying that sarcastically.)

[Brandon]

Craig,

Can you please explain to me why me saying Fuck or Shit is foul language?

[greg]

Robyn and Scott. Thanks.

Craig,

Soft on truth? Which truths did you have in mind? I fear we've stumbled upon someone who has never had his faith deconstructed. Oh dear. Adam, thanks for being nice, sort of. Brandon, you too.

By the way, Adam, we're doing about 800 hits a day around here. Some days over 1000. I think we've surpassed a handful.

[Resident Atheist]

This issue of foul language seems to comes up a lot, and I honestly don't know why. Here's one reason why I'm puzzled: when people make claims to the effect that we don't need to care about the hungry because it's their own fault they're poor, for example, this seems fouler (to me, at least) than the very best of the four-letter cocktails. And I've heard more than a few doozies in my time. Why on earth would anyone use vocabulary as a litmus test for the quality of people's suggestions?

Maybe Frodo's observation about Aragorn is appropriate here: servants of the Enemy often look fairer and feel fouler. (Don't ask me who the Enemy is. It's just an allusion.)

[greg]

RA,

I hope my swearing has been up to snuff. I do better on Brandon's blog than here though.

[Brandon]

Funny, I do better here. I'm such a fucking hypocrite.

[Scott]

Brandon,

good haiku! You're a F***ing genius!

oops...

[randy]

May the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be pleasing to you, Oh God.
Let us pray before we speak, AND TYPE. Love is the answer - there is so much pride and devisiveness here.
I only know this, I was blind, but now I see.

[Scott in Houston]

Randy,

Pride? I don't think so. We weep for the shortcomings of the church. Deviciveness? Well, I don't know any church, leader or movement that hasn't had to endure it's share of criticism. Jesus spoke to it rather than run from it. Don't be so quick to lable what is said here heresy and malice till you understand the heart of the matter. This is a blog of frank and matter-of-fact conversation; take that into consideration before blogging.

peace,
Scott

[Sunny]

These are the stats. (I am not a member of Life church)

On average, 150 to 200 people profess Christ each week at life church. That is 25 per campus on average. (7 now and soon, maybe 8 campuses) That has never happened in my church.

23% of giving currently is going to local, state and foreign missions. When they planted the churches in Phoenix, the church took an offering and more than a million dollars was collected to go to starting the churches in Phoenix. This tapped the resources of the church pretty well. It was true sacrifice. 100 people (20 families) volunteered and moved to Phoenix to begin the church plant there. Gave up their jobs and everything. They chose Phoenix over Fort Worth because more lost people there.

Of their missions giving, a large part of it is used to pay for 3 kinds of mission trips for their members to take. Very short (weekend that anyone can do), medium length (a week to 2 weeks) and mega missions of longer duration. They pay for half of their members fees for these trips. They believe if you are not on mission, you are not getting Christ's call. By acting in mission, you begin to taste what Christ is calling us to be and change begins within.

They put 6 people teams (pastors) into each church for pastoring the people. Some of the pastors are ordained women.

They discovered the video preaching by accident. (The preaching pastor hated it.) It happened because one of his baby's was born on a Sunday morning, and he had to be with his wife. They played the recording from the night before so there would be preaching. More people came to Jesus that service, than did the night before, and on average, (he preaches at about 7 services each week live) the numbers for live and video are about the same for professions of Christ.

They disciple hard in small groups, calling people to action rather than simple static belief.

They use worship centers geared for 500 or so in most places, preferring the more intimate setting to the mega church model. Most members then work in children’s ministry, greeting or other things in other hours. It is participatory, not come and see.

They believe that the church is NOT for believers, but for the lost. (Believers are already saved and there is no reason for them to remain here on earth save to find the lost.) They design church events to attract the lost and seek to eliminate barriers that would separate the seeker from the redeemed, such as having communion off to the side, rather than passing plates (where some may, and some may not partake). As a result, it is a church experience that bothers most believers. That is what Life Church Expects. They are not interested in gathering up and concentrating the redeemed, but rather, if you are redeemed, expect to work.

They do not do the church the best way, or the only way, or even claim to do it in a good way. They just claim to be doing their best to hear Christ and follow where he leads.

I know this makes many of us uncomfortable. We need to be uncomfortable. The church as it exists in America is not reaching the lost. We are becoming irrelevant. Change is necessary. In the most churched area of the nation (Dallas Fort Worth) only 27% are in church on any Sunday morning. What we are doing is not working. Of 20-30 year olds, less than 10% are in church. Every major denomination is shrinking. Overall attendance in worship is decreasing (not only in percentage but in actual numbers.) Less than half of the believers in America attend any church at all.

Change should be measured by one thing. Not pastor's salaries, or costly sound systems, or whether it offends you or makes you uncomfortable.

Change needs to be measured in the number of lost that are found.

The people we must find are Christ's beloved. We risk His eventual scrutiny if we fail to woo his bride and bring her into who she was meant to be, no matter what the cost.

We are truly the servants who have buried our talents in the sand, standing by criticizing the one who is actual talents.

[greg]

Sunny,

According to your numbers somewhere between 85,800 and 114,400 people have "professed Christ" (whatever that means) at a Life Church campus. How is it that we haven't noticed 100,000 new Christians in OKC? How is it that Life only has a membership/attendance of 12,000? You talk about the hardcore discipleship in the small groups, so should I assume the missing 88,000 are in small groups and not weekly worship services? According to Life's own numbers, giving to missions is about 15%. Nice try though. And we haven't defined what missions means to Life yet.

The churches in Phoenix send money back to Life OKC, so I guess you could call the million dollar offering a short term sacrifice for long term gain.

If they put pastor teams in those campus churches, why aren't the "pastors" trusted to preach? I won't even touch the 500 member worship services as not being based on a megachurch model. You fundamentally misunderstand what a megachurch is apparently. The church is not for believers? Is that what Jesus said? Is that what the NT hints at? What kind of ecclesiology is that? They don't just eliminate barriers, they eliminate critical elements of the Gospel. You'd do well to quit propagating their talking points and do some study for yourself.

And this: "They do not do the church the best way, or the only way, or even claim to do it in a good way." Have you seen the most recent ad campaign? Hate church? So did we. What's the implication there, Sunny?

"Change needs to be measured in the number of lost that are found." Really? Because I think it needs to be measured by our faithfulness to Christ, and evangelism is only one part of that, and if we fail to bear authentic witness in our fervor to save the lost, even when saved and lost are intentionally poorly defined, then we've ultimately not been faithful to the call of Christ, but to a caricature of Christianity. Theology matters, Sunny. You should read some.

[Scott in Houston]

I agree with you Greg, Life's model church doesn't meet the requirements of church planting to me. A plant in itself is supposed to eventually be self sufficient, supporting and governing. Life doesn't do that. I also am suspect of the numbers of "new fish" that Sunny reports. Conversion without discipleship is catch and release. Video church is kind of like what I saw as a young teen when my family was a part of Robert Tilton's Satellite network, that was nothing more than broadening the income base. I don't necessarily think that is what Life is doing, but I agree they seek continuity that is a little strange or controlling, I'm not sure which. Evidently they don't want anyone but Craig to deliver the message of the day.

I'm not a member of Life either, and thought I appreciate their enginuity, I don't support that method wholely. I don't support their rock-star like worship atmosphere or their Jesus "lite" messages. Yes I've heard Craig and he's a clever communicator and a good manager of people from what I know of his leadership style. But that doesn't translate into results in individual lives.

[Sunny]

For the record, I am a MDiv (Master of Divinity) graduate of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (with languages). 1985
My Father was a Baptist pastor (planting churches), as well as my grandfathers on both sides. Most of the 1/4 time churches in the Appalachian mountains were brought to full time churches by one grandfather, and most radio ministry in the mainline denominations was invented by my other grandfather. He started the Baptist hour, the Presbyterian hour, the Methodist hour, all so the radio stations would put the Baptist hour on the Radio.

I have read theology all my life, and love it. I have earned my theological chops.

Once I graduated, I realized that I was not supposed to be a minister (personality never was cut out for it) and went into lay ministry in all the churches I have been a member of, as well as doing my best to reach the lost through my business. I am still learning what that means.

All of this means nothing compared to the way Christ came to me in college and won my heart.

I have spent my life seeking God.

The calculation of salvations you made is meaningful only if the current rate of professions is the historic rate of salvations. This church is growing so fast that the numbers I quoted can only be used for current and future projections. Projections into the past must be decreased in proportion to the growth. You know this. Why the fog? If you decrease the number of saved per week in a linear fashion .5 people per week, (natural logarithm indicates that a hyperbolic decline would be more appropriate) but assuming the linear non natural decline, you will see that in 5.7 years, only 22575 people could have been saved. In reality, with a natural hyperbolic decline, the number would be far less.

Assume 50% drop away (that is a lower ratio than Christ seemed to indicate in the parable of the seeds) then only 11,000 of the now 17000 member church would be new Christians, well within the number. With a hyperbolic decline the number is much less.

By the way, I checked on their salaries another way. Only 33% of the receipts go to salaries on ALL the campuses combined. This is much lower than most churches that tend to spend 50% to 80% in staff salary. Their salaries are set by an independent lay committee, and these are compared to a document prepared by an ethics in giving organization for salaries of ministers at different sized churches. Greg's salary is at the low end of what a minister in the US makes at a church the size of one of their campuses.

They have, by the way, planted about 6 independent churches outside the campus model within the same time period. One is attending more than 1500 people already. They are not against the current model; they are just trying something new.

I drove 3.5 hours this weekend (from Fort Worth) to attend their worship in OKC. It was not my natural style. Too loud. But the sermon was great. Not shallow, but an effective call to true faith put into action. (It was really too far to drive to attend only a one hour service, but I needed to see and feel their spirit.)

The promo you mentioned. They have made the strategic choice to try to make their presentation attractive to those who have been turned off by the church.

These were the people Jesus called to, as well. If you will remember, he grilled and filleted the local Jewish men of faith, calling their attempt at worship experience "whitewashed graves". Instead he offered a presentation of God's love geared toward what the wounded needed. At that time, it very much turned off the "Church" (Temple) leaders. It messed totally with their idea of how worship should work. He broke all their comfortable rules, choosing rather to meet the needs of the lost, rather than the people of the faith.

So now we stand looking at another work, most likely of God (certainly not of Satan), that we do not agree with, and have the audacity to think that we are the faithful ones, and the ones winning the lost are the Pharisees?

Your arguments lack facts preferring innuendo and gossip, lack honest inquiry of what God might be doing, lack humility toward actually which side of the fence you may be on, in short, show few signs of the redeemed. Please brothers, do not do this.

I, myself, know that these men are servants of another, and not me. Neither do they stand factually accused of wrong doing (appropriating money for instance). They just seem to prick your comfortable sensibilities of how things should work. Look in the Bible and see whose feelings resemble this.

In truth, the New Testament church had many polity models. One of those was campus churches under Paul, who sent money back and forth between them to support each other, who had local pastors who were subservient to Paul's leadership. This was not the only model. In Jerusalem, James was the leader of the church, one of congregations meeting all over town in the various synagogues. In Timothy's church, he was the sole pastor, with help of Titus. In some churches, elders led, in others, Bishops. We have many names, but it comes down to one thing. There is no one way to do church properly.

I encourage you. Hold these guys feet to the fire about ethics, about faith, about the truth of scripture. They are men, but at most times will stand up for the test. Whey they do not, others in accountable relationships will call them to account.

Stop looking inward and look outward to the world. Celebrate that LifeChurch is reaching their part of the kingdom. They are us! We are them! It is all the body of Christ, not some other group we can stand back and harp at. Turn around and stop harping about your brother, and show me your efforts by what you reap.

[Sunny]

One theological note, Jesus never even mentioned the church. Check it out. The church is not something you go to, or attend. It is the people. The church exists wherever believers gather. The word translated church is ecclesia, very similar to the Spanish word Iglesia. It means "The called out ones". Our term Church comes from the German Kierke (sp?) which refers to a building where one goes. Our whole idea of church is somewhat tainted by this historical anomaly. Still, there is little wrong in gathering in a place to worship. It has been done since the Tabernacle.

[greg]

Sunny,

Lovely job with the math, but they've been claiming the same numbers as long as I can remember, so you'll need to rework your calculus. Actually, Jesus mentioned the church to Peter. "You are Peter and on this rock I'll build my church." Hmm...You might remember that, and I'm aware that the church is the people. I'll grant that LC offers a worship experience, but not that they offer a church. I'll respond to the rest tomorrow.

[greg]

Sunny,

What is his salary since you've checked? And don't forget the benefit package, including housing.

I'd love to see the whole budget. As JV pointed out recently, we expect non-profits like Compassion or World Vision to spend 85% or more of their receipts on direct aid. Why are churches exempt from this expectation? Only 33% to salary. I realize that's good for a church, but you didn't say what the budget percentage was at the main campus, and that's really the number that matters.

I keep hearing about these churches they've planted, and I know of one, Journey in Norman. Do you know where the others are and what they're called? That's a serious question by the way. Again, Grace Covenant doesn't count. You can't abandon a worship service and call it a plant. And I wouldn't be too proud that Journey is running 1500. I know of one church in Norman that lost about 30% of their members when Journey came to town. That kind of growth is certainly something to be proud of! It reminds me of Swindoll starting and instant megachurch in TX. Gee, Chuck, where do you suppose all those people came from? Did you think you showed up and the pagans just rushed to the altar?

You wrote: "The promo you mentioned. They have made the strategic choice to try to make their presentation attractive to those who have been turned off by the church." Great, but that avoids the point you made previously that I was countering.

Sunny, your Jesus/Pharisee analogies are delightful, but you fail to take into account who the dominant religious leaders in the country really are. It's the mega-pastors: Hybels, Warren, Graham, Jakes, White, Bell. They are the religious hierarchy these days, not people like me who stand on the periphery and ask questions and make criticisms. You might want to rethink the application of your analogy. And let's not pretend every church is a work of God. If vibrant, growing churches are a sign of God's work, then the Mormons and Muslims are kickin' ass with the Lord right now. And Satan? Can we not make everything some sort of dualism? It's either God or it's Satan. No. Sometimes it's people not getting it right, no matter how sincere they might be. And I believe the LC folk are sincere. I also believe they have a poor grasp of what worship is and how ecclesiology shapes us.

And would you stop with the winning the lost nonsense? LC isn't winning the lost. They are growing by virtue of transfer growth, just like every other mega in the country. What does winning the lost even mean? What are these lost being saved into? A church? An entertainment venue? So many assumptions you've made and yet you claim theological chops. Quit allowing some truncated notion of evangelism to define the parameters within which you do theology and apply some theology. Since you got your degree in '85, I assume you got a real degree and not an indoctrination into SBC nonsense--they type of degree available at that institution today. So, apply your theological training to real ecclesiological questions.

I do not prefer innuendo and gossip. It's ironic that you live in TX and yet claim to have more understanding of what is happening in OKC than someone who has lived here for the past 13 years. I know LC members; I know LC staff; and I know former staff and former members. You read about them in CT or some other place, make a 3 1/2 hour drive, ask a few questions about the budget, and pretend to know it's the Lord's work. Hubris, I believe, is the word.

And this: "One of those was campus churches under Paul..." Really? Campus churches? Wasn't Paul an apostle and not a pastor? Didn't he set leaders in place in the various churches or trust the community to govern themselves? You're really reaching here. And the Jerusalem church was an exception to every rule. The model was temporary and provisional. No other church had enough apostles to call a council. The deacons were appointed to help the apostles. Everything about that place was different. You're reading the current context back into the past and making some anachronistic fallacies.

"There is no one way to do church properly." Agreed. But there are ways to do it badly.

"Turn around and stop harping about your brother, and show me your efforts by what you reap." I am so tired of the assumption that because I blog and critique, I therefore do nothing else for the kingdom. That kind of judgment is absurd.

Sunny, you seem sincere and kind. If I lived in Dallas, I'd be all over Prestonwood or Fellowship Church. It's nothing personal with LC. They just happen to be here. You're not. We obviously don't share some assumptions. If you'd spent more time reading this blog and less jumping to conclusions, you'd understand the basis for the critiques I make.

[Sunny]

I guess I am in a really unique position. My church in Fort Worth is dying. It is sick from a combination of factors, primarily though, factors out of our control. Too many disasters. One pastor left and got a divorce, then next died of cancer within a year, an attempt to sell our building in an auction advertised all over the US brought no bidders, and many more. Each time we look to finally see what direction God is going, and each time we are asked to walk an unbelievably hard road.

We are a radical kind of church. We don't do things the way the big boys do; we have long wonderful praise times, a secondary church within us is a post modern fellowship (which, in a way was another hit, because any semblance of youthful members left the main body, disconnected, and went there.)

We preach deny yourself, take up your means of your own execution, and follow Christ.

Our main task for years has been to heal those around us. Unfortunately, we drew those needing healing, and never turned them into healers.

The result became a body desirous of ministry, but too wounded to act.

And we became smaller and smaller, until we became insolvent.

By God's grace, we have found a buyer for our building, and will be moving out later this month. We will pay off another piece of land we have long felt called to for ministry purposes, and will clear about $500,000.

We will have land, cash, and an exhausted incontinent body.

Our elders are great men, but wounded as we are. They and our pastor have searched far and wide for what God wants us to do.

We tried to get churches to donate members. None did. We tried to merge with churches, but God did not lead there. The ones who came seemed to look right through us to our assets or offered our pastor a job if they could get the church assets, and none were finding a way to penetrate this generation that I could see.

I am not like you in one sense. I love all those shallow attempts at salvation. They are the result of spreading the seed. I grieve for those who will walk away, never letting the seed bear fruit. They do so as Christ indicated they would. But those who stay from this effort have a chance to really know God. The ones who do not hear, or cannot be penetrated through their cultural stupor never will have that chance.

So I am looking for something slightly different than you. I am looking for effective ways to tell tons of people, so some will come.

Here is the real interesting part. In all our talks with people, the Life church people were one of those groups.

They were the only group that said, "If you are supposed to go to that land, you need to do it." They were the only group of leaders that humbled themselves and said, “No matter what you do, we will help."

They were the only ones who said up front, "if you merge with us, here is what you can expect. Most of you will leave because you will feel we are so different. (Over half of Metro church left and did not come back)

And they offered us a chance to join them.

This Sunday we are going to take a vote. It is interesting in lots of ways. It has forced us to examine them pretty well. It has been an examination from the outside, as we have only met them once. (That was a pretty cool time though.)

The result of this vote will be (if we vote to joint lifechurch) that our pastors will resign, our elders and leaders will resign. We will dissolve our church give the proceeds of our assets to Lifechurch (our land and money) with no strings attached. (Before we give these over, we are making sure our pastors and other continuing ministries of a school and the Post-modern fellowship will have money to continue with for a year.

We will not be in leadership, they will. Our vote also indicates our willingness to follow. We will attempt to be a part of what they are doing.

All signs from God seem to indicate that this is the way we should go. (I could enumerate them if you like some time; they are pretty amazing to me.)

Our leaders have encouraged us not to encourage anyone to vote any particular way, but to go home, and pray, and hear God, and do what he tells us to do.

So that is where I am. I have been in large churches and small, I have been in wicked churches and those filled with God's grace. I have grown up with people in my living room like Bertha Smith, Billy Graham, RG Lee, and others.

I am descended of those who tried to attempt really big things for God. They do not always work out, but some do.

When they do, we can see the hand of God far more clearly than the hand of man. In this, that is what I see.

I am leaning toward voting in the affirmative. Nothing I have seen here dissuades me; rather, it has sent me looking more carefully.

Are there shallow believers there? Sure. But there are great saints there, as well.

Well, there you have it. Much of my pain is poured out here. Just to write it nearly incapacitates me.

My solace is this. What looks like failure with this context, often is not. In the cell of Joseph, I am sure he believed he had failed God some how. It was not until in the context of seeing his brothers walk up to his as the leader of Egypt, that he understood much of the meaning of his suffering.

So to will our pain be understood in the future. I pray it is a future of many thousands of shallow new believers, who with my guidance will one day become the next great men and women of God.

This blog has helped me solidify and focus those things I believe and those things I know about this situation. I am really grateful for that. Writing these notes has turned vague thoughts into concrete ideas.

I think I must be much older than many of you, in many ways. In my youth, I was a strident believer in black and white about most theological issues. I castigated those who were older and "had lost the fervor for battle".

I think maybe I was in the wrong battle. I fought traditionalism, dispensationalism and many other isms, but now I suspect they were never the enemy, no matter how wrong they might be.

I think the enemy is out there. He is really hurting the world (and some in the church) but it is he that is the enemy, not you guys, not the other churches that I may not like, not any of that. It is in the really vast deserts of agnosticism and secularism where I think the battle is to be waged. People who are trying to believe don't worry me. People who don't care whether I believe or not, do.

I heard an interesting fact this week. Muslims out number evangelicals (church attendees) 11 to 1 in France now. This is due to influx of Muslims, but also to this wasteland I spoke of.

We are one generation away from that if something does not change.

[greg]

Sunny,

I suspected you were a good person. God's grace to you. Thanks for your honesty. I honestly don't know what to say. LC appears to be involved in corporate takeovers now. Much more I could say, but I respect your desire to hear God and do what's right, so I'll take this off blog. Email me if you want to continue the conversation. Grace and peace.

[Leighton]

Wasteland of secularism?

Sigh.

Thanks for the conversations, all, but I need to take a very long vacation. I don't know if I'll be back.