« Theology Quiz | Main | Yet Another Theology Quiz »

June 13, 2005

Comments

Tim

If you think homosexuality is not a sin, then this would be the most ridiculously ignorant crock of crap ever foisted on anyone (the exception being Pepsi and anything by Carlos Santana). On the other hand, if you believe that homosexuality is a choice and a sin, then maybe not.

Zossima

Sounds like the high school I went to. Took years to get over that.

Dave Rattigan

Fuck, fuck, fuck. This makes me so mad. Borders on child abuse. (Who am I kidding? "Borders"?)

greg

Tim,

Even if you think it's a sin, those restrictions are ridiculous and cruel. They don't have these sort of shock treatment places for liars, gossips, slanderers, adulters, gluttons, or any other sin I can think of. And no masturbation...sheesh! These are teenage boys...

Tim

It's not just the boys grego... there was also something about not visiting malls of any type. They're coming down on the ladies too!

Tim

Monk-in-Training

The sad thing is, this kid will grow up sometime, perhaps scarred horribly by this, at the very least he will hate the Church that did this to him, lets pray he remembers Jesus would never have built this Guantánamo for Gays.

Scott Jones

I almost cried while reading it. I want to go rescue this kid. Oh, the judgement I feel toward his parents and the perpetrators of this torture and affliction! How to find reconciliation with such evil!

Joe Kendrick

After reading the list of rules, it seems to me that is a sex fixer camp. Meaning it's for those struggling with all sex problems. So the porn and other sexual attactives that are prohibited are understandable the rest is totally ludicrious. No hugs, no talking about at home. How in the world are they expected to fix their problem, whatever that problem is and it could simply be they need to able to talk about with the people they love and not just forget it. One question though, what type of work style haircut do they mean. Rock Star hair cut, hippie worker, police worker, hospital worker, they just don't specify.

Resident Atheist

As often as I use the phrase "banality of evil", you'd think this sort of thing wouldn't surprise me anymore. I saw this via Majikthise last week and I've been mulling it over ever since, trying to find something to say about it on my blog. I don't think I will, though, other than to post the link. I just wish I didn't remember the time of my life when I would have advocated this for any of my friends who turned out to be gay; it's funny what living in a subculture with a carefully manufactured set of facts will do to a human mind. I really need to read Hannah Arendt again.

Jennifer

And they will know they are Christians by their hate...

That is so sick I think those people ought to be shot, right along with the parents who send their kids there. It's time to arrange a meeting between these so-called Christians and the man they say they work for...

Let 'em explain their evil to Him...I'm sure that'll go over well...

Tim

One of the greatest aspects of a Calvanistic understanding of Scripture is that no matter how many screwed up, misguided people (even his parents and those who might claim "Tough Love" as a reason for such treatment) who try to drop the hammer on this kid, God's love towards him cannot be thwarted. It's in no way an excuse for them to mistreat him or anyone else, but their lack of understanding and downright stupidity will not stand in the way of God's intense, eternal love. Jesus crushed evey aspect of evil and wickedness. To God, this kid's situation is child's play. I would say his sexual orientation is sinful, but according to Jesus, "It is the sick who need a doctor." I'm sick, you're sick, we're all sick. You may not agree with my views regarding God and the homosexual lifestyle, but my God is a lover, a healer and a forgiver. He has, and continues to do, all those things for me.

greg

Tim,

Calvinism doesn't solve anything for this kid. It just means that God decreed what he's going through. That's gotta feel nice. As a Calvinist friend of mine used to put it: Nothing touches my life that doesn't first pass through the hands of a loving Father God. Wow! Tell that to the victims of rape, molestation, and abuse. Then you've got the other side of Calvinism--the bastard kids. The ones not elected to salvation. Those who through no fault of their own inherit hell because of the decree of God. Yeah, that Calvinism...a mighty comfort to the afflicted. Yes, Lord!

Tim

Greg,

Yes, God allows those things to happen. Jesus himself said "In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." As for your statement "No fault of their own..." That is not supported by Scripture. We're sinners by nature and "...the wages of sin is death." I know that doesn't jive with your interpretation and I'm ok with that, just know that my view is one of hope, and mercy becasue of what God has done for me.

Still in search of the elusive Celebrator,
Tim

greg

However, the notion that God decrees all things isn't supported by Scripture, but that didn't stop Calvin or his followers from believing and propagating that awful notion. It's an old argument, but you can't say God decrees all things and then say we're responsible for our sins. It's like playing with plastic army men and blaming them when your game goes wrong.

Good luck on the Celebrator. Surely there is a liquor store that carries good beer in Dallas.

Phil

Good God almightly, gentlemen! Of course, there's Celebrator down here. It flows aplenty! The best part is, I'm about to holiday in a little Bavarian town in Washington state that has Celebrator on tap for only $4 per glass. Brilliant!

Tim

I really haven't been trying to find it all that dilligently. One day I'll stop by the Flying Saucer and get a glass there. Meanwhile I douse my parched throat with Guiness.

Your friendly Calvanist pal,
Tim

cheek

Tim, I don't mean to sound hateful, and so I'll try really hard not to. I think that your statement: "my view is one of hope, and mercy becasue of what God has done for me," demonstrates an acute egocentrism. It is a message of hope for you because you are in the elect, but for someone who is damned it is a message of hate and despair. My nature is given to me by the God who created me (on your view); so how is it that I am to be held responsible for acting exactly as God created me to act? Do you feel compassion for those who you believe to be damned, and if so, how can you worship a God who would torture innocent (by innocent I mean that they played no part in choosing the natures that rendered them depraved) creatures forever just to satisfy his own lust for glory?

Tim

Cheek,

I appreciate you prefacing your comments with a statement about not being hateful. I didn't interpret them as such, but I appreciate it anyway. I don't mind being disagreed with as long as we can be civil to each other.

I don't know that I would agree that having homosexual tendencies (natural or not) would excuse someone from acting on them. I have a strong sexual desire, like most other men. That does not mean however, that I am given the freedom to sleep with whoever and whenever I want. The Bible teaches that sex is reserved for a man and a woman in the marriage relationship. God has allowed sin to disrupt our society and some people have bigger obstacles to overcome than others. I guess God could have just never allowed us to live at all, but wouldn't that have been just as "unfair?" He has allowed things to be the way they are so that He can reveal His power through our weakness. It may sound fatalistic, but if some things are out of God's control, then how much faith can should we have in Him to begin with?

I do feel compassion, becasuse God has made it clear that we do not know what He knows (including who the elect are) so we must be gracious and compassionate to them and hope that they will come to know Him as Saviour. Even if someone "hates" God, we must still treat them as He has commanded us to (i.e. lovingly and compassionately).

Thanks for the stimulating conversation,
Tim

cheek

Does your brand of Calvinism include the idea of total depravity entailing the inability of human beings to avoid sin or even recognize sin as sin apart from the grace of God? That is how most Calvinists I have encountered have believed, and it is difficult for me to understand how a person can be held responsible for not obeying rules that they were created unable to obey. Of course now I am grateful to have been created, but I think that after I spend a while in Hell I might not feel the same way.

Tim

Cheek,

You don't have to go to hell. You can respond to the gospel right now of your own free will. That's the mystery. No one's going to be in hell saying "I wanted to go to Heaven, but God said 'no.'" No one doesn't understand the rules. We all have a conscious knowledge about right and wrong. You don't have to be a Christian to know that murder bad.

I cannot convince you. It doesn't even all make total sense to me, but because God is trustworthy on the things that I do understand, then I feel He is trustworthy in the things that I do not as well. I wish I were smart enough to make it clearer or more succinct. I also hope we can disagree agreeably.

Tim

cheek

I guess I just need a little more sense from God on issues like this one. Of course I hope I have not been too aggressive in my comments here. My goal, as always, was further understanding.

*Christopher

Sorry about that last posting, Greg.

"Sexual Conversion Therapy" evaluates such programs from solid psychological perspectives all in terms of overall well-being or what we might shalom.

It seems from here, this is incredibly a selfwillful thing to do to this child--more about the parents and Christians than about loving the other as one'sself. My grandparents wanted me to join up with such a camp in college; I refused; we don't speak--I divorced them. There is little one can do as well should he commit suicide at such a camp; most of these folks aren't professionally licensed.

Greg, at this stage, apologies are not enough in my opinion, though I appreciate your speaking up.

This is not the will of G-d. This is the result of powers and authorities and human cooperation with them in sin, in denigrating an image of G-d. Any god who would actively lets this happen is a sado-masochistic god unworthy of worship. Give me Jesus Christ anyday of the week over such a god as this. Jesus teaches us a stand-in and stand-up way of life. G-d stands with this boy as G-d's very face for us. Will Christians?

From the prayers of the people I wrote and posted in early June (in preparation for teaching on intercession in our new members class--now revised for this child of G-d) that we'll be using this summer in my parish:

Leader: All you company of heaven, men and women, saints and angels, thrones and dominions, seraphim and cherubim, we call upon you to join us as we pray, binding what we have bound and loosing what we have loosed, praying for the in-breaking of God’s holy Reign:

....

Leader: For sexual and gender minorities, lovers of God, we bind the spirits of homophobia and heterosexism, of scapegoating and self-will, of murder and hard-heartedness, of inhospitality and fear, of self-righteousness and disdain, in our hearts and in midst, and we loose us into your Reign of cooperation and humility, of life and broken-open hearts, of communal support and love, of neighbor-care and embrace.

The people add their intercessions.

Leader: God who is with us,
People: Hear our prayer.

bobstevens

It really pains me that this guy's parents would put him in this situation, but at the same time it sounds like it's an easy enough program to get out of if you don't want to be there.

Threaten someone and you're gone. It's that simple. I don't understand any motivation to obey any of these rules.

Jennifer

Because what they might face if they _didn't_ obey the rules is worse than the degradation and humiliation of being put through that program -- abandonment by one's family.

There is a special place in hell for these people -- for the people who preach this crap, for the people who profit from running these programs, and for the parents who put their kids through this.

God spare us all from "well-meaning" people.

"Good intent and honesty don't excuse stupidity."

They don't excuse pure evil, either.

Kyle

That was freaky. I was reading that website when Soundgarden's "Boot Camp" came up on winamp:

I must obey the rules
I must be tame and cool
No staring at the clouds
I must stay on the ground
In clusters of the mice
The smoke is in our eyes
Like babies on display
Like angels in a cage
I must be pure and true
I must contain my views
There must be something else
There must be something good
Far away

Scott Jones

Greg, over at my site I've linked to an update on this story.

haha

FAGS WILL BURN IN HELL. If you think God tolerates sodomy you are SADLY mistaken, missy. There is no repentance.

greg

How did the lobotomy patient learn to use a blogging tool?

The comments to this entry are closed.