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November 28, 2005

Comments

Joe

I guess you haven't read the 7 Ways To A Healthy Friendship put out by Focus On The Family. If you did then you would know that in order to have a successful thriving friendship someone must be hired as the director of said friendship. That person is required to plan and prepare all gatherings.
It goes on to say how great it is for the economy because these positions are creating jobs. You can find it on fullofit.com.

Scott in Houston

What if this movement is so good, so relevant that it captures the hearts and minds of thousands. If what I'm hearing and seeing of the Emergent movement is true, people all over america and the world are embracing the community of friendship. I am not endorsing it by any means, but does a "community" need a spokesperson or does it govern itself...or does it even adhear to government?

I somehow don't think it's the theology of Emergent that is winning the masses. It's the friendship. If they are going down a path that leads to burocracy and hypocracy like the rest of hydra-headed organizations, then what is your obligation? Are they right? Are they relevant and are they being the church if Jesus? Are they speaking Jesus' rhetoric and reflecting it in action and ideals? Is this organizing of emergent contrary to all these statements? Personally, I don't have so much of a problem with it. What is dissapointing is the fact that it's controversial. No one can escape their own theology. Not Greg, nor the rest of us.

So what is their mistake? Seriously...I look for an answer to that question. Should they not organize for a larger community, or is that itself contrary to Christ's idea of church? I don't personally support a denominational position but if they're right, who's to stop them from organizing?

greg

Scott,

I don't care if they organize. I just want them to be honest about what they're doing. It serves no purpose to insist that "we're a friendship" if you've already hired national director.

Troy Bronsink

Greg you wrote:
"...They may lose a few 'friends' along the way, and they ought to lose at least one, but they are indeed headed that way. It wasn't the friendship that attracted me to Emergent; it was the theology I was reading."

I invite you to see how incarnational theology might actually identify relationship as the nexus for theology. I'm glad that the theology providing a way forward for your own thinking may have been the initial attraction to Emergent.

It is pretty tempting to think of an equitable,unilateral theology that works without the friendship, but it usually doesn't. What actually starts happening is that you chose to make the theology happen. And when you do, you must make the human compromise of shaping your life into an approximation of the theological hopes you have.

Say 50 of us are trying this kind of approximating, and others keep asking if they should also try approximating for themselves. Well, that becomes hundreds until actually making the theology work, fleshing out an eschatological hope, requires a better system, and no independently wealthy person or over-paid employee is networked between these hundreds well enough to do it pro-bono... You are faced with the question, can we pay a friend to keep us connected, remind us of the tasks we pick for ourselves, and create good rhythms of hospitality so that people who want to try it themselves can join easily... so you end up with a coordinator.

David Gray has this song that smacks of Hegel and others asking, "what are you becoming and what have you become?" Friends can ask this, Ekklessia and Solomon's Porch can ask this, and you too can ask the things you are asking because of resources devoted to helping this friendship of "approximators" try it together.

peace

Tofflemire

On a national director and after reading this.... http://www.bpnews.org/bpnews.asp?ID=22156

The desire for definition, by detractors, pushes well-intentioned collections of folks to develop a hierarchy. As the perception of momentum (threat) becomes more real, those who belong to the establishment will ask for the same from their opposition. "Take me to your leader", they will ask. "Leader of what?", might be the best answer.

greg

Troy,

Thanks for reading and responding. I understand what you're saying, but I have to take issue with this:

"Well, that becomes hundreds until actually making the theology work, fleshing out an eschatological hope, requires a better system,..."

Make it work for what or for whom? The friends? It's a conversation, right? So how is "work" even defined here unless you intend to organize around a "working theology"? If you intend to organize around a working theology, then you are an organization of sorts and there will be parameters to what sorts of conversations are truly representative of the group's core values. So, if one of my friends insists that women are not equal, and are in fact inferior in practice, then I might still be his friend, but I won't let him speak for the group or as if he's part of the group; it undermines what the group is trying to accomplish and flies in the face of our working theology.


"...and no independently wealthy person or over-paid employee is networked between these hundreds well enough to do it pro-bono. You are faced with the question, can we pay a friend to keep us connected, remind us of the tasks we pick for ourselves, and create good rhythms of hospitality so that people who want to try it themselves can join easily."

Why am I faced with the question? Your assumption and the conclusion that has already been reached are governing your question. I need not be faced with that question if I'm engaged in a conversation. If however I'm engaged in constructing an organization, then I will be faced with that question. What tasks do you pick for yourself that require a paid coordinator? If you're doing conferences and publishing deals, why not just admit that it's gone way beyond a friendship/conversation? It seems pointless to continue to define something as something it is not, unless there is an ulterior motive. For the life of me, I can't figure out what that motive would be (except maybe controlling a brand without appearing to control a brand), so why not just fess up? And join what easily? A web site? A conversation? Does it require a national director to join Emergent Village? Honestly, I just got another email from Pagitt yesterday about the "let's pay Tony" campaign. That's two fund-raising letters in two weeks. At this pace, they'll be begging for money at the same rate Sojourners is right now. That is probably the key difference between a friendship and an organization; we don't fund-raise amongst ourselves as friends, except to support a worthy cause NOT related to the friendship.

Call Me Ishmael

Good questions--although I may not have worded them in quite the same manner.

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